Ep167 Transcript: Interview with Ron Macklin

Andrea_Vahl: How do you go from an engineer working on nuclear power plant engines to starting a business, launching a bestselling book and starting a podcast? Well, my guest today did just that. Tune in to today’s episode where I interview Ron Macklin.

Hello, dreamers. Welcome to the late starters club, giving you the inspiration, mindset, and tools you need to start something midlife and beyond remember, it’s never too late to follow your dreams.

Hello everyone. And welcome to another edition of the late starters club. I am your host, Andrea of all. And today I am joined by Ron Macklin, who is among other things, the founder of the Macklin connection, but he is a, uh, he’s got a long list of husband, father, son, bestselling author, guide leader, follower, entrepreneur, investor, developer, and Authentic scared self.

That is, that’s my favorite one. So welcome

Ron_Macklin: Ron. Thanks, Andrea. Thanks for having me on the show and thank you for putting the show together. Yeah.

Andrea_Vahl: Yeah. So I’m excited to talk about your journey because we were just kind of getting connected. We, um, We, we got connected through pod match, which I think is the dating app for, uh, podcasters.

Um, but it’s a great, great, uh, place to meet inspiring new people. And I just love hearing about your story. Cause we have some similar backgrounds with being recovering engineers who have started something totally new, but I’d love to have you kind of share your late starter journey in life, how you.

Transitioned from engineer working on nuclear power plant motors, right? Or engines, whatever engines to now what you do today, which is very different than what you, what you went to school for.

Ron_Macklin: Thanks, Andrea. So I’ll start with my first job. Right. Which was, I was a football player. Um, I actually played through high school, uh, uh, junior college and then division one.

And I, I loved the football, but it wasn’t the game itself. It was working together with a team. So that was the beginning of this journey, right? Was leading and organizing a team when you’re on a field and like most people would say combat, but you’re playing the game, but you have an enemy, right? So you’re in combat, right?

I found my love there, not in the game, but in the leading of people. And creating a team that could do something that most people said couldn’t be done. Uh, from there I went into engineering, I think because it had the least amount of English possible. Like that was the way I chose it. It wasn’t that I was passionate about engineering.

Although I, I do love to take things apart, put them back together and figure out how I can improve them. So like I had some, some, uh, inkling of that. Right. And, uh, got out of school, um, went to work for a big. Power generation company was, uh, at the time it was Westinghouse was turned into a Siemens Westinghouse, Westing and then Siemens.

And I worked in the power generation industry. So you have new plants, coal fired plants, uh, combined cycle gas plants. And like, like, just like your car, you have to do maintenance on them. And we’d come in and take them all apart and put them back together. Cause you don’t want them to shut down while they’re running.

Like you want them to run and then stop and then fix them and then go back in. And what I found is it was just kind of like playing football. Like it was a team, you had to put them together, had to get you understand what the goals were, had to share that everybody got to contribute and create this whole space.

And it was like, as beginning of the thread here, like what I love to do in life. And so as I was doing that, we said, you know, why don’t, why don’t we see how fast we can do it? Cause every time the power plant is running, it makes electricity, but when you shut it down, it doesn’t make electricity. So how do we make it, how do we make it shorter outage?

Like when they shut it down, we can go from a 28 day to a 14 day. That would be worth something like, like 14 more days of generation of million dollars a day that could make it worthwhile. And so we set out to reduce the outage down as short as we can get. And we went from normally a 25, 30 day outage down to nine days.

And it was a lot of fun because we’ve got to set world records and people were having like reward from their, from the job, they can go home and tell their kids I set a world record today, you know, and, um, we actually filmed it, stop motion video at it. This was back in the nineties, stop motion video. And we gave everybody a copy of it because like it’s the ownership.

Of being a part of the team. That’s what I was focused on. Right. So you can see, I’m still building teams, continue to work up through there. Went to Germany for three years, built some teams over there, all around North America, Northern hemisphere really is where I worked. I came back to, um, about this time I began to realize they keep assigning me to those groups that are like struggling.

Right. When you see a group that’s struggling, like, like we had a new manager every two years for the last five years, last five managers. That’s where I got, that’s where I get assigned. Right. And I go, cool. I mean, I was loving it. Like anytime somebody says it can’t be done, I’m in right. That’s where I want to be.

Cause I can build a team with the same people that are there. And they do it, not me. I don’t do it. That’s the whole secret to this whole process. It’s not about me telling them what to do. It’s about them doing what they love to do. And that’s where you do that. So we took the worst run organization in North America for Siemens.

And three years later, we got the best place to work in Houston, Texas award. So like a shift of the people from in that space. And the truth is they were doing it all. I didn’t do much. I mean, after I got started, I just, I was kind of bored. Because they were doing it, they were doing their job. They love what they were doing.

They were getting it done. And that’s when I started to create, how can I do this other places? So that’s, that was like the beginning of creating it. Now I’ve been in my mid forties, um, continue to work there. I went to work for another company as a vice president. Um, then left that came to work at a medical device company because his friend had asked me to come help out.

I just kept working on how do we build teams? How do we build teams and how do we build those connections? Really? The team was kind of a misleading term. It really comes down to how do you build a connection between 2 humans or. Multiple groups of two humans, and then that they trust each other, right?

That they’re willing to express themselves. They’re willing to take help as well as give help and you can be yourself. And when you screw something up, you can go, Oh, good. What can we learn? Not oops, I got to hide this. And I need to keep this under the, I got to keep this away. Right. Cause I’m embarrassed of that.

I’m human. I make mistakes and that’s kind of how I got into the space. So, um, it was about, uh, six years ago, uh, it was 53. And I decided I didn’t want to work for somebody else anymore. I wanted to go do this full time in my, in my world. So I, I resigned my position as president of the medical device company and I started forming this one and I always kind of felt it was about the time the founder came out.

So I go, Hey. Right. Roy, Roy Croc started when he was 53, two, right. Right. And a little bigger empire than, than we’re in now, but it’s not too late. And it’s, it’s, it was, uh, that’s where the journey began.

Andrea_Vahl: Right. And what I love about this is that you realized it wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t the working on the motors or doing the, you know, getting, getting that done.

It was the team building. That was the thread that tied this all together. That made it fun for you. And. You decided to take that into that method into your own business and help help lots of other teams. So that’s, that is really cool. Um, and I, and I love that too, that it’s not too late. You know, you’re a lot of people start thinking about retirement when they’re in their fifties.

They’re like, well, I’m just, you know, 10 more years and I’ll be able to hang it up. You’re starting something new. Totally new. You’d never started a company before you, you know, and you figured out how to do it.

Ron_Macklin: Yep. I’ve learned a lot of things to not do. That’s I want, I can say that for sure. A whole lot of not that, but there’s also a lot of things I’ve learned that I didn’t know.

I mean, I just didn’t know where to even start on some of it. Right. And a lot of stuff like, uh, and we tried things like, uh, we’re on our fourth website now, but we tried things and what we’re doing and we just go like, okay, that didn’t work. Okay. What would we learn? How do we go on? Right.

Andrea_Vahl: Keep going. Right.

Right. So like, did you have, did you have like, um, any mentors you look to with starting? How did you, how did you get the whole engine running to, you know, enrolling? Did you start on the side or did you just say one day I’m quitting and going all in? How did, how did that

Ron_Macklin: evolve? I had a lot of people offer to be mentors as I ran into this, um, I had a great, uh, mentor in, um, David and Britta who are, Britta is, uh, my wife’s cousin, but they’re in the e commerce business.

Like they do, they, they sell things online and do stuff like that. And so they were helpful in me trying to help build a presence and understand the mechanics of. What does it mean to have a website? What does it mean to be all this stuff? What does it mean to do email marketing? What is it all that, all that stuff.

They were great mentors in this space. And you know, for me, it was like every other day I’m calling Germany. They lived in Germany. I am calling her. What is this? What is this? What is this? What is this? Right. I’m like, okay, let’s just schedule a weekly call. Write down your questions. We’ll get on the call.

Thank you for, thank, thank God WhatsApp is out there, but we can continue to communicate and talk to each other. So they were, they were pretty helpful in that part of it. Um, and then there was, um, like, how do I form like the business itself? Like, like you want to have a limited liability corporation. You want to go in and get that set up.

Like, how do I find the right guy to do it? And then what do I want to have inside my, my documents? Right. And I had a great friend, uh, Eric, who really helped me kind of go like, okay, you got to look at it this way. Imagine that everything goes the worst possible way. That’s, that’s what you want to create it for, right?

You want to create your stuff to where it covers you for that. And then you can relax. Yeah. You can go out and be free and be in your stuff. Right. That was great help. That was great helping and shaping that. And he had done several businesses. I mean, he had done several businesses and created a little stuff.

So he was going like, uh, I’ve been there. I know where you’re at. Right. Yeah. In this space. And, um, then the rest of the mentors that showed up were people who found what we were doing and found it inspirational and they wanted to come in and bring what they had. They wanted to join the business. They wanted to come in.

And then, so now they’re not just like a mentor. They’re like a guide. And they’re in with me every day. So I do what I do to help them develop their confidence, competencies and skills in the leading and coaching. And they’re helping me understand like how to think about business and how to think about that space.

Yeah.

Andrea_Vahl: Yeah. Yeah. That’s great. I mean, it’s so important to have, have people you can rely on, have a team and. You know, what I love about what you’re doing as well is that you’re, you know, working on building trust and it takes trust to trust to, uh, be able to take this leap to, you know, start something new and, and trust in the advice that you’re getting from people who’ve gone before you and all that.

So it’s definitely, that’s awesome. That’s great. Um, so talk about where that one, I love the title of your book. And I, I wanna talk about where that came into play and how that, ’cause you wrote a book for your, let’s see, you were at age 59, right? First book. First book at age 59. Yeah. When,

Ron_Macklin: when I finished it, it was age 59.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. . Yeah. So I wrote, I wrote that at 59. And, and what’s your, like, why’d I, why did I name it what I named it? Or what’s it about or what’s, what’s your title? Yeah,

Andrea_Vahl: so, so the book title just, I didn’t. Didn’t even say the book title, but everyone is afraid, a fable of fear, friendship and flourishing.

I love

Ron_Macklin: that. Thanks. Um, so what the book is about is it’s a space for people to notice that they’re not alone because they’re afraid. Um, it’s actually written about in the, the forward by Bowen White, uh, Dr. Bowen White and my own first chapter was, I went into a situation where I was turning 31, just got my master’s, uh, in business administration.

And I was going to a breakfast in Kansas City area when I was living there. And there was this guy in front with a white coat on, like a lab coat, like a doctor, but he had like balloons under his pants from behind, you know, so that big bum, right? And a red nose. And he’s like, Dr. Yerko is what he called himself.

And he was talking about fear. He’s talking about anxiety. And the room was full of like top executives from the Kansas City area. I was going like, I was full of fear, right? Cause I’m going like, I don’t belong here. I’m 31. They’re all 50 something. Right. So they, they’re, they, they would have made it. I’m still looking to make it.

Right. And he, he pointed, he goes, this question, how many of you are afraid? And you think there’s something wrong with you that you’re afraid. I was sitting in front of the room. Cause I figured if I sat in front of the room, I could fill up, get all the good information, right. And. He started to raise his hand and point at me when he was just doing this, pointing out in the world, but I felt like he’s pointing at me cause it’s my fear.

And he said, look around. And as I raised my hand and looked around, everybody in that room had their hand up. And I shifted from everybody’s afraid and there’s something wrong with me. Right. To everybody’s afraid and that’s normal. And then over the next 20 some odd years, as I met people that were what I consider to be, you can say powerful people, but I could just say people who had power to get things done.

Like they had a good career, they had a good life. They were confident in what they were doing. They were open, right. They had one thing in common. They all talked about their fears. They all could talk about them, like, like it gets shared out into the world. They didn’t have fear or say they had fears. The fears didn’t have them.

They could talk about their fears. Like I was scared to death about this and this could happen. I could be a failure of this happened unless I was sitting there going like, wow, right. When you can talk about your fears, when you can acknowledge them. Then maybe the fears don’t control you, but when you don’t talk about them and you look at Facebook or Instagram or anybody’s pages, LinkedIn, we all talk about how we’re afraid and we all talk about how we’re, you know, scared of these things and no, we got our shields up.

I made this accomplishment. I got this thing’s going great. Look how pretty I look. Look how good my kids look. Look how good my parents, all of that stuff is. Those are just shields. To protect our fears, and when we can put those shields down, they’re just stories and not really shields, but put those stories down, you can talk to anybody.

So the book is a fable written like these aren’t real characters. Although I’ve had people come to me and say, did you write that about me? No, you just saw yourself in the character, right? And it’s all made up. Chance where all these characters begin to discover that, like, they think they got to do it alone and they can’t let anybody see that they’re afraid and their answer is, let’s just work harder, not work together.

And as they’ve been to pull through those things and realize everybody really is afraid and when we can talk about those fears. We can all live a better life. And so that’s the purpose of the book is to create that space.

Andrea_Vahl: That is awesome. And that, that comes, that’s so good for, you know, relating back to teamwork too, because I think if you’re afraid.

You aren’t, you know, you, you do get into that mindset. Like I got to go it alone. You’re afraid because you’re alone, right? You afraid you’re afraid because you feel alone in the world. You’re the only one who feels this way.

Ron_Macklin: We in a meeting and we’re afraid. And what we could add into the, into the room may change the entire outcome of the room, but we’re sitting there quiet and afraid we’re not, we’re not putting ourselves into the game.

We’re sitting on the sidelines. Now, same room. One guy stands up, says something. He goes, yeah, that’s it. That’s good. Let’s go. Right. Or, or a really powerful team. Somebody says, Hey, there’s an idea. And so he goes, well, I like that, but we could add this to it. Oh, this is great. No, no, let’s start over here with that.

And all of a sudden, everybody’s got some input into it. What you can create is maybe a hundred times better than any one idea because you could bring it together. But if you’re afraid and you can’t talk because you’re afraid, now we’re all going to be afraid that your fear never goes away. It’s just whether you put your fear in the back seat and say, you can ride back there.

I’m going on. Right. And you’re still going to be there. You’re still gonna be afraid. You’re gonna be nervous. All that stuff’s going to happen. And you’re going to put yourself into the world and you’re going to make a difference for everybody that’s there. That’s one example. When you want to, when you want to create something in the world, kind of like starting a business when you’re 53, there’s all that fear that can stop you.

Andrea_Vahl: Yeah. And, and all that. I mean, you know, so many things are scary, right? We’re, you know, especially if you are starting something new or putting yourself out there in a more creative way that can feel like just very vulnerable. You know, you might be scared that you’re going to lose your livelihood, scared that it’s just not going to work out scared that, um, people are going to make fun of you or say, who is that?

Who is she to. Do something like this, you know, like what does she, who does she think she is, you know, or whatever. And, uh, so it’s, it’s, it’s terrifying. So many is so often. And, um, but you, you know, it’s the only way to, is to push through. Right.

Ron_Macklin: Thanks, Andrew. The, what you talked about there showed up as all the reasons why I think I shouldn’t put it out there because of all those things will happen.

But what I noticed is we never think about that, about other people. Like we go, they shouldn’t have said that that’s terrible. No, we would never do that. But we make it up for ourselves because that is the story in our head. Yeah. Which is a podcast. But the story in your head is like, look at those stories.

We make up in our head is they’re just stories. Exactly.

Andrea_Vahl: Exactly. And the story in, in your head is often that. They’re often not even, they’re so worried about their own stuff. They’re not, they’re not worried about your stuff.

Ron_Macklin: They’re so busy with their story and their head. They can’t even hear you or notice you’re even there now.

Imagine a room where you got 15 people that are all sitting in their heads going like, I’m not good enough. I’m not fast enough. I’m not strong enough. I shouldn’t say anything. Nobody’s going to like me. I’m going to hate all this stuff. Right. Or a room that everybody goes, Hey, what about this? Hey, what about that?

What about that? We tried this. What if we had this on top of that? And everybody goes, Oh, that was really good. Thank you. Look at the difference it makes. And just, this was just a meeting. Imagine a whole company, a whole group that could be open and authentic and real and laugh when they mess up. Right.

Instead of being ashamed that they messed up. Yeah. Well, that’s, that’s a company, that’s a company that’s, as I say, that’s a company that sets world records. That’s, that’s a company that doubles the profitability three years in a row. Yeah. That’s a company that just looks forward to coming to work. Yeah.

Yeah. And that’s that, now that’s a fun life.

Andrea_Vahl: Exactly. Exactly. We’ve got to have fun. And I think, you know, it is, it’s about like when you’re If you’re afraid of making a mistake or you’re afraid of admitting a mistake or afraid you’re going to get punished for a mistake, then that just really impacts what you can accomplish, what you can do, you know, how you can work together.

Ron_Macklin: So, so, so Andrea, I want to, I want to offer this. Everybody I’ve met the most powerful, competent people I’ve ever met. They still have the fears. It’s not like, so if you’re somebody’s listening to this going like, Oh, this is really cool. If I get rid of my fears, fears never go away. Yeah, exactly. It’s just a matter of you being able to have the courage to act in the middle of those fears and when you trust everybody around you.

It’s much easier to have courage because you go, well, Ronald had my back, Andrew, I’ll have my back, right? I’m good with that. Right. Because when I get it out there, I can go forward. I’m still scared. Right. And when somebody goes, that was a good idea, you can just see the whole shoulders go, Oh, thank God I didn’t, but that’s that fear inside.

Yeah. And it’s always, it’s always going to be there. Right. It’s just whether or not you keep acting with the fear.

Andrea_Vahl: Yeah. And I think it’s also a response to, uh, it can be a response to what we, what the story is around failure, right? Because I mean, that can be a whole thing in itself before, um, you know, if we’ve got this story that failure is the end or failure is the worst or failure means I’m stupid or whatever it, it means, then, um, Then that can create more fear.

But if you’re, you know, just realizing that failure is just feedback, Hey, that didn’t work. What else? What’s next? You know what? So that’s, uh, that’s a great, great

Ron_Macklin: reframe when you can hold it. When you fail, all it means is you failed. It doesn’t mean anything else about you or anybody else. It just means you failed.

You go, Oh, that didn’t work that way. Right. Cool. What can we do now? Yeah. Yeah. Versus, Oh, I, we failed. Oh, I guess I’m a failure. I guess I shouldn’t have tried. I guess I should be quiet now. I guess I should not talk.

Andrea_Vahl: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. So, so talk about where something that you have, uh, done in starting your business or starting your book or starting your podcast, what, what’s something for you that didn’t go right that, um, You know, you learn from and, you know, kind of a big takeaway or aha moment that you’ve had during this journey of starting later in life.

Ron_Macklin: I’ll just pick one because we only got 30 minutes here. Um, so first thing I would say about the book, this is my second book because the first book sucks so bad. That, um, I, I couldn’t use it and what it was, it was really a book around the story of like how I discovered what I discovered, how I went through and did what I did become there.

When I got done with it, it really looked like it was all about me. Right. And I was going like, Oh no. And then I remembered, uh, after a year, I remembered. Nobody wants to be told what to do. They want to discover it. And the way, best way to discover it is to tell a story that enables people to read something and go, I discovered that.

Like, and they did, they really did discover it. So the book is all about, I guess, what is a technical term is Easter eggs. There’s all kinds of Easter eggs planted throughout the entire book for people to discover something about them and about the world to go forward. But the first book. It was just telling.

I was just telling, telling a story. Here’s, here’s how I did this. That’s why I did this. That’s why I screwed this up. So I did that and I went, no, it’s not my stand. It’s not what I, that’s not how I want to own with the world to interact with the story that we’re putting out in the world. So there, there was, there was a year on of 250 pages that still sits there and looks at me

and it’s going to stay that way.

Andrea_Vahl: Well, that is, that is awesome. And then you’ve. You launched the book and it went to bestseller, right? It was number one, a new

Ron_Macklin: release number on the release and the number two bestseller. Yeah, that’s awesome. So yeah, we’re pretty excited about the book. And, um, I think the, the part that I’m enjoying the most is as people find it, they reach out like they, they, they find the book, they read it and then they, they, they send me a, an email.

And they say, you know, thank you for this book was really good. I really appreciate it. You can find me on LinkedIn or they find me through, um, the, uh, our, our website and space. So when you can find somebody who like you didn’t write the book for them, right. And they got something out of it. That was really cool.

Andrea_Vahl: Yeah. Yeah. That is cool. That is cool. Yeah. I think for sure in this, this day of this day and age of social media and the, you know, sometimes the facade that is up in front of, uh, what’s really behind the curtain, um, it’s hard to remember that everyone is afraid. So that is. That is for sure. People say, Oh, you’re so brave.

You’re so, you know, you’re so brave. I’m like, maybe I don’t know.

In some, some little instances here and there.

Ron_Macklin: Cool.

Andrea_Vahl: Yeah. Great. Yeah. So, um, awesome. So, um, talk a little bit about what you, what you do with Macklin connection. You’re and who you work with.

Ron_Macklin: So. Well, we work with, um, our, our main target for businesses is we try to stay in the range of people who are between somewhere between like 10 and a hundred million in sales and that have a culture that they don’t love.

Even though sometimes people don’t know that it’s a culture that they don’t love about the company. They go, I just can’t seem to keep people. I can’t seem to motivate people. I can’t bring in new talent. I can’t do all that kind of stuff. And what we do is we come in and we help them like by coaching executives, but also by putting the middle management and the first level management through some of our, our workshops.

And that way you get a kind of a, a beginning to understand the stories inside of those three layers. And it kind of, the whole company begins to shift at the same time. And we don’t like we, there’s no prescribed culture to get, like, we don’t have a history culture. Take this pill and you’ll be done.

Although the red pill would be nice. No, The space is you get to the tools to be able to create your own culture and culture is not a top down and it’s not a bottom up. It’s a all the way across have to work together to create it. And when you get to the place where you begin to create your own stand, like what you will do, won’t do, might do as a group, you’ve now taken responsibility for your culture and you’re going to create that as you go forward.

So we work with them. Uh, courses take somewhere between 18 weeks. Um, and normally we do two or three of those. For the group or per company, it just gives everybody a chance to begin to understand. What does it mean to be afraid? What does it mean to trust another person? What does it mean to not tell people what to do, but to let them discover what to do and figure out how to contribute?

So everybody gets to put it into the, into the company. What people go to work for is they want to contribute. They want to work for somebody they respect, they want to be respected from the people that are there and they really want to make a difference pay pay shows up somewhere in the bottom, but like, if you don’t pay them, they won’t show up.

But as far as why they’re there, why they come into work every day. And when, when people start to work with that, they begin to create and take off and do stuff and then. That’s one of our main offers for Macklin Connection.

Andrea_Vahl: Awesome. Awesome. I love it. Well, I love, I love what you’ve created. I love that, uh, you, um, decided to start something totally new in your, but even, but carry through the threads from your whole career and, uh, and just put a book podcast, all kinds of, Great material, blog posts, everything out there and, and it’s, uh, it’s awesome.

It’s awesome. Very inspiring. So thank you. Um, and as usual, we’re for the, um, closing of my, of my interview here. What I love to get from people is their favorite motivational quote or inspirational saying, and, uh, talk about that.

Ron_Macklin: So, um, this one’s from Abraham Lincoln. Um, and it’s, um, I may paraphrase a bit because it’s not in front of me, but you cannot truly help people by doing for them what they should do for themselves.

And I find this very centering in, it’s about how do we help people create their own lives. Right. As a leader and people are following, they’re creating their own lives. It’s not like we’re going to tell them what to do and do with it. You’re like, right, that’s, that’s doing for them, right? Where if we create a space where they get to contribute, they get to engage with us, they create it and it’s theirs.

It’s a really good life. And it’s dignified. And I find that quote to be exceptionally centering for me.

Andrea_Vahl: That’s great. That’s great. It’s, it’s hard as a parent to kind of embody that sometimes.

Ron_Macklin: Well, there’s, there’s, there’s a whole thing about, for me, that’s the way it shows up for parents. You would live in a space of two things.

One, you want them to become a, like a happy person in the future and you don’t want to get run over by a truck. Right. So there’s like this, there’s a safety thing pulling you in. Right. And there’s also, there’s other thing pulling you out and then you, this is, this is what it means to be a parent. You’re trying to push away and pull back at the same time, like push and pull, right?

You want them to get on their own and you don’t want them to get hurt.

Andrea_Vahl: Yeah. So don’t play in the road, but enjoy your,

Ron_Macklin: all kinds of ways to get run over

Andrea_Vahl: in life. So

Ron_Macklin: yeah, that’s the part about being a parent, I accept. Yeah.

Andrea_Vahl: That’s true. Well, Ron, this, this has been so much fun. Um, why don’t you tell people where, where people can get connected to you?

We’ll have all the links in the show notes, but

Ron_Macklin: yeah, um, if you want a first place to reach me as, um, go to the, uh, imaginal community. dot M N dot go, which is our imaginal community, which is a mighty network site inside there. You just sign up and then you’ll find me in there and send me a note. That’s the easiest way to make sure it gets to me.

You can always send me a, an email at Ron at Macklin connection. com. Lo love to hear from you. Uh, just be patient. Cause sometimes it gets screened out and I only go through spam once a week. And, um, you can also go to our, um, Macklin connection. com. website, and there’s a place in there where you could say, I want to learn more and fill that out.

And it’ll come to myself or Deb Dindi and we’ll get back with you.

Andrea_Vahl: And we’ll have links to your podcast and your book and all of that as well. So thank you so much, Ron, for your time and, uh, in your wisdom on all of this. And, uh, thanks

Ron_Macklin: so much. Thank you, Andrea. Great show. Appreciate it. Thanks.

Andrea_Vahl: Hope that was helpful and make sure you grab the free guide top tools for late starters on the website at late starters club. com and let’s turn dreaming into doing.